CO-OWNERSHIP - IS IT A LIABILITY?

Looking back on my experience with Drakyi Timberline Moxie I feel that my co-ownership was a liability in terms of temperament and breeding quality. Drakyi Timberline Moxie's COI is listed at 23.81%, she has the same grandfather (Timberline's Barni Drakyi @ 27.07 % COI) and great grandfather (Drakyi Timberline's Gus @ 31.1 % COI)on both sides. I found this article about epilepsy: I lost both financially and emotionally. Because of my experience and what I have learned I think that "show-breeders" will use unsuspecting people to shift any responsibility to the co-owner. In other words; if the litters produce puppies with health issues that could be damaging to their reputation, the blame is then shifted to primary owner, (generally the co-owner) when in reality, they are an innocent victim thinking a big, long time breeder is "helping them along"! Don't do it! Being friends with this long time and "show breeders" can be devastating as I found out.

The two worst experiences I had were owning Timberline Drayki Moxie and Nothstar's Turbo Shelby. Based on my personal experiences with the breeders of these two dogs that I previously owned, I would never, ever, want to do any transaction with them again!

Based on my experiences with serveral breeders I do not recommend breeders who breed multiple breeds and multiple litters. From my experiences I have found that show breeders and breeders who do nothing but breed dogs for a living tend to "hide" serious issues and are not very honest. I have formed these opinions based on my direct experiences with these types and owning their dogs. I would stay as far away from these types of breeders as possible. Remember a dog bred for the show ring may not be the healthiest or best example of the breed. Often times "not". Read about Uri's Demodex, her breeder, and her pedigree here.

Generally, I believe, it is best to steer clear of breeders who "showcase" themselves and their dogs photographed in unnatural settings. As a digital artist I know the possibilities of photo alterations. I have met a couple of breeders like this. One barely reaching my chin in height. When someone like this is photographed next to their dogs; they have the "appearance" of being much larger than they really are. This is just one example; the list goes on and on. We all know that when it comes to digital alterations - the possibilities are endless!

Going to shows I was surprised to discover that "show people" will use products to alter the color and thickness of the dog's coat. Tibetan Mastiffs are to be shown in their natural coats but this doesn't seem to be the case. Again, I think that people who make a "living" off selling puppies will go to extremes for "appearances"

"Blaming the victim" is prevalent within the Tibetan Mastiff community. These are my thoughts based on my experiences with "Show breeders". I believe they want to "get rid of the competition". It is driven by jealousy, money, and self promotion. I would definitely stay clear of "show breeders" because of what I have learned from them personally. "Show breeders will be very nice to 'newbies," but they are cut-throat; just like the movie "Best in Show"! They enlist new people who are wanting to get in the breed to spread rumors about others and promise them things that they will not honor. It is very disgusting to see how people treat others.

Show breeders will promise you the world to co-own. They are just looking for someone to use shall we say as a "incubator". They may give you the dog but they retain ultimate control over the dog, in some cases, breeding it, then taking it back for whelping while reaping the profits from the puppies.

Several of these breeders living near to me will act like they are the Tibetan Mastiff Gurus. I truly believe they love themselves more than the dogs and are a legend in their own minds. Much of what they say; I have found to be untrue but hey, as long as you know what your are dealing with and don't fall for their game; they can't hurt you or anyone else. To admit you don't know everything opens the door for learning.

Some things to think about. I hope that I can save someone else the time, money and heart ache that I went through. Number one thing to remember is that as the co-owner you ultimately are responsible for anything that can go wrong. These long time show breeders seem to live by - "Profit is sweet, even if it comes from deception."

Finally, I can say with confidence that I know of many healthier dogs with far better conformation outside of the ring; than in the ring. So if you are looking for a great pet with a far superior temperament, look past the AKC show crowd and I believe you will be far better off and much happier!

Co-ownership - My experience The following was our original agreement:

Hi Charlie,

I didn't want you to take my question about co-ownership the wrong way or anything. I just don't remember asking how it works.

Mary

On Jun 18, 2011, at 8:37 PM, Charles Radcliffe wrote:
No problem, it works any way we want it too. I always do it this way. She is your dog unless you can’t keep her, then she’s mine. You can’t sell, give her way, euthanize, or spay without my approval, unless mortal injuries make waiting for me inhumane. I always try to go along with what the residential owner wants. If anything happens to either one of us ownership passes to the other without any compensation to heirs. Now on to breeding arrangements. The first litter is to the male of my choice and I pay any fees. I get first pick, you get the rest. The second litter is to the male of your choice and I get second pick. The rest are yours. After that there is nothing due me and she is your dog. If she has turned into some hot show dog, I would like to remain as a co-owner of record but it would be just to get a little reflected glory and if I wanted anything else out of her we would renegotiate it just like a breeding agreement.

If this sounds ok, I will save it just so we can remember what it was.

Charlie

THIS WAS THE RE WRITTEN AGREEMENT AFTER THE DOG WAS WELL OVER ONE YEAR OLD. YOU ARE AT SOMEBODY ELSE'S MERCY AND WHIM. EXTREMELY IMATURE AND CHILDISH IN MY OPINION, ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THEY RE WROTE THE AGREEMENT BECAUSE I BOUGHT A PUPPY FROM SOMEBODY THEY DID NOT LIKE. HOW WOULD YOU LIKE YOUR CONTRACT CHANGED?

Final version. Mary I added a sentence on stud fees for both litters. Consider this the final version and ignore the other one.

Hi Mary,

This is the ownership contract I drew up. Rick has settled down and is fine with it. If anything is unclear or you want to discuss it give me a call this afternoon. I have several vital calls to make ASAP and Rick ran my phone down so waiting to recharge then I will probably run it down again.

If everything is OK as it stands, print two copies, sign and date them and next time we get together bring them down so I can sign and date them. Hopefully this will settle the issue and Ron will become quiet and reasonable for the duration of your ownership on your new puppy too.

CharlieOwnership Contract on Drakyi Moxie of Timberline, A gold Tibetan Mastiff

The primary owner is designated as Mary Holzer. The secondary owner (co-owner) is Charles Radcliffe. The dog Moxie will live, for her lifetime, with the primary owner. Moxie cannot be sold or placed in another home without the approval of the co-owner. If no approval of a second home can be agreed upon and the dog has to be placed for unforeseen reasons she will go to the co-owner. Co-ownership will last for the lifetime of the dog or co-owner.
Duties and responsibilities
The primary owner will be responsible for all expenses for Moxie, including food, medical, and show expenses. She will x-ray the hips and elbows, when appropriate, and then continue showing Moxie until her championship is complete if the hips are normal.
The co-owner is entitled to pick the stud dog for the first litter and to take the first pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner.
The primary owner will pick the stud for the second litter and the co-owner is entitled to the 2nd pick puppy. All others will be the property of the primary owner. Stud fees provided by the co-owner.
After the co-owner has taken his second puppy there is no more obligation on the primary owner for any further financial remuneration (including puppies). Stud fees provided by the primary owner.
Both parties agree on one stipulation. There will be no stud services or puppies purchased, sold, or exchanged between the primary owner and Ron Bombliss of Kesang Camp Tibetan mastiffs with regard to this dog only.
Signed Primary owner, Mary Holzer ___________________________
Signed Co-owner, Charles Radcliffe _____________________________

Does this sound fair? After paying $1000.00 for an average dog + shipping, I was now expected to give two puppies in return, pay all medical expenses, and show fees!. This would total in excess of 6 or $7000.00. No I would never be a stupid as I was then and hopefully this little bit of "education" can save somebody else the same heartbreak and money.

BECAUSE I HAD BOUGHT A PUPPY AND WAS SPEAKING WITH KESANG CAMP'S; HE REFUSED TO HONOR OUR ORIGNIAL CONTRACT AND STATED THAT HE WOULD REFUSE TO SIGN OFF ON ANY LITTERS IF I WAS TO CONTINUE TO DEAL WITH KESANG CAMP DOGS. (I CAN FORWARD EMAILS TO YOU). THIS OF COURSE, WAS AFTER HE GOT A KESANG CAMP DOG "THOUGH THE BACK DOOR" AFTER A VERY UNFORTUNATE SITUATION.

IN THE END I WAS GLADTHAT I SURRENDED THE DRAYKI BRED GIRL BACK TO HIM BECAUSE IT WAS A VERY BAD CONTRACT TO BEGIN WITH; BUT BECAUSE I WAS NEW TO THE BREED I DID NOT REALIZE THAT I WAS BEING "TAKEN TO THE BANK". I DID LEARN THAT I WILL NEVER EVER WANT ONE OF THEIR DOGS AGAIN, FOR MANY REASONS. I WAS THE TYPE OF PERSON PEOPLE LIKE THAT LIKE TO PREY ON. 

Finally, I find it rather childish that grown ups can act like high schoolers and require somebody not to talk to somebody they do not like. How professional is that? I was performing the contract above and beyond our original agreement which was one sided. Having somebody pay for a dog, medical expenses, and show fees while you act as if you are some sort of ethical, resposible breeder is puzzling to me. I view this as extortion and a way to have others "whelp" litters so that you appear to be something you are not. I am guessing this is a way not to appear as having too many puppies per year at the expense of others. Think about it; normally people would be calling breeders having this many litters up front "puppy mills", but by having others do it for them, they eliminate the label and all responsible.

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